Episode 11

October 14, 2020


Race And Tarot

Race And Tarot
Women Bridging the Gap
Race And Tarot

Oct 14 2020 | 00:45:50


Show Notes

Continuing the exploration of racism in everyday things, Alexandra and Lenya discuss tarot, where tarot came from, what it means to use tarot, and descriptions of different types of cards, decks, and crystals. Below you'll find links to all the different tarot decks and cards discussed in the episode. Do you have a favorite tarot card deck? How does it speak to you? What's your main purpose using tarot cards? Do you ever think about the origin or path tarot has taken to get to you? Join the [Facebook Group](https://www.facebook.com/groups/665585734389981) or use any of the contact methods below to reach out and let us know your tarot journey. -- Links: * [Lupita Nyongo](https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Sulwe/Lupita-Nyongo/9781534425361) * [Racism and Formula 1 Racing](https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.watch-drivers-unite-in-fight-against-racism-in-new-film.2hBGtpECEHM9ZJUBt9sTNO.html) * [Sir Patrick Stewart's wife](https://www.sunnyozell.com/) * [Sir Patrick Stewart Domestic Violence The Guardian article](https://www.theguardian.com/society/2009/nov/27/patrick-stewart-domestic-violence) * [Shows Chewing Gum, Black Earth Rising and I May Destroy you](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michaela_Coel) * [Effie's Paper](https://effiespaper.com/) * [Lenya's favorite crystal shop](https://www.etsy.com/shop/CrystalAndCraft?ref=simple-shop-header-name&listing_id=878180517) * [Tarot podcast](https://www.wildlytarot.com/) * [Star Trek](https://www.startrek.com/shows) * [Alexandra's Blog](https://alexandraditalia.wordpress.com/2016/06/10/the-tweener-bout-whos-the-hottie/) * [I May Destroy you, Insecure, Lovecraft Country](https://www.hbo.com/series) * [Girlfriends](https://www.netflix.com/title/70157416) Tarot Cards we mention: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rider-Waite_tarot_deck https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoth_tarot_deck https://www.thewildunknown.com/collections/shop-the-magic https://www.etsy.com/listing/760013451/canes-arcanae-the-dog-tarot-deck-in?ref=shop_home_active_5&frs=1 https://www.taroteca-studio.com/Tarot-Decks/Regular-Edition-Decks/The-Dark-Mansion-Tarot-deck-Regular-Version-3RD..-Edition-Black-edges-blue-reverse-of-cards-clouds- https://lightseerstarot.com/ https://www.lisasterle.com/mwt https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/blackgoldlenormand/the-black-gold-lenormand https://www.energymuse.com/deck http://www.robinscottart.com/projects/the-urban-tarot/ -- Please **rate and review** this podcast if you enjoyed it; it greatly helps new listeners see this podcast is worth their time. You can find Women Bridging the Gap on [Apple Podcasts](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/women-bridging-the-gap/id1521503012) and [Podchaser](https://www.podchaser.com/podcasts/women-bridging-the-gap-1304390). **We want to hear from you!** Let us know how you’re speaking about these issues with your friends. **Let us know what topics you want to hear!** Join the [Facebook Group](https://www.facebook.com/groups/665585734389981) Email us at [[email protected]](mailto:[email protected]) You can find us at: [WomenBridgingtheGap.com](https://womenbridgingthegap.com) Or on Instagram: * Find Lenya at: [@Lenya_ goddess_ the_one](https://www.instagram.com/lenya_goddess_the_one/) * And Alexandra at: [@a_xandra17](https://www.instagram.com/a_xandra17) and [@thewritingleap](https://www.instagram.com/thewritingleap) * And the show is at: [@women_bridging_the_gap](https://www.instagram.com/women_bridging_the_gap/) This podcast was edited by Brendan Hutchins from Podcast Advocate. Go to [PodcastAdvocate.Network](http://PodcastAdvocate.Network) or find him on [Twitter @PodcastAdvocate](https://twitter.com/podcastadvocate) to learn more.
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Episode Transcript

This is an automated transcript, and not corrected. We're sorry for any errors. Lenya: [00:00:00] my friend, has a company called Effie's Paper. Okay. And that's named after her grandmother and she's specializes in beautiful stationary. [00:00:09] And she also did my rebrand. So I have these fantastic cards, note cards with my name on them, and she designed my new business cards. And, I love the stationary. I just don't write enough, [00:00:22] Alexandra: [00:00:22] Larry, a lot in your business. [00:00:23]Lenya: [00:00:23] I write, yeah, like I write notes. I leave them on like, if I'm doing a return, let's say of clothes. [00:00:29] I'll write a thank you note to the PR company for allowing us to use the clothes. Yeah. So I do, I've already gone over, already gone through one packet. [00:00:39] Alexandra: [00:00:39] Wow. So I still have my, my stepmother had given me like really beautiful stationary and also beautiful cards with my name in Boston them. And so. [00:00:50]I still like to use those for thank you. Cards and things, too. Good stuff. Canary is a lot. It's a lost art. Everybody. You should do it when you get a thank you card on embossed, stationary or personal stationary, it stands out. [00:01:05] Lenya: [00:01:05] Yeah, that's why I love he's paper because it's just beautiful. I had these cards that said slay all day, which is like, you know, Beyonce, but I'm in the back. [00:01:15] Was this, I think marbled sort of. Design on the back of the cards. It was just stunning, you know, like I didn't even want to use them. They were so pretty, but I did send, I actually used them all up, but, I love stationary and I just, there's something about the quality of hers that I really liked. [00:01:31] She was on the today show, [00:01:32] Alexandra: [00:01:32] so. Wow. That's awesome. [00:01:35] Lenya: [00:01:35] Yeah. So [00:01:36] Alexandra: [00:01:36] the link below for people. [00:01:38] Lenya: [00:01:38] Yes, definitely. Definitely. She'll be happy about that. [00:01:41]Alexandra: [00:01:41] learning. Lenya [00:01:42] Lenya: [00:01:42] good morning, Alex. [00:01:44] Alexandra: [00:01:44] How you doing? [00:01:45] Lenya: [00:01:45] I'm wearing the same [00:01:46] Alexandra: [00:01:46] dresses yesterday. I noticed I'm not I'm, but I'm wearing my pajama top. Like that's like basically where this has gone. [00:01:54] It's been that kind of week. [00:01:56] So tell everybody how much you pulled yesterday. [00:01:59]Lenya: [00:01:59] 230. So close to my PR like so close to the number that I want. So, so close in 20 pounds away. I can't wait. [00:02:08]Alexandra: [00:02:08] we're excited. We're excited for you. So today we're talking about tarot. So I think we should, we're sort of covering like racism in everyday things. [00:02:19] And the idea that really in trying to educate white people, To the experience of a black person in America, really understanding that it's everywhere. So when a white person is feeling defensive to sort of actually take a moment and feel some empathy to the idea that in almost anything a person does , It's through a white lens. [00:02:50] And so the idea is that in of itself is exhausting. , [00:02:53]Lenya: [00:02:53] these tarot cards that we're going to talk about, like all come from everywhere. [00:02:58] Alexandra: [00:02:58] No, it's true. [00:02:59] Again, like if like we're going to have , looking at certain cards that might come from say, Poland, it might not be representational, but it is representational maybe of Poland, it is everywhere. that affects the psyche and I want to delve into that. [00:03:15]we did not come to our interest in tarot together, or even talk about it until we were well both into our own separate interests. do you think it's because there is some stigma around tarot cards, [00:03:27]Lenya: [00:03:27] you know, probably, I don't know, like my. I know your interest is for a, has gone for a long time, way longer than mine. [00:03:34] Mine was purely because I started following somebody, not having anything to do with their tarot cards, but having to do with, the spirituality around their Instagram. And then they started, you know, they've had these weekly readings and I was like, interesting. and. I thought maybe I won my first set, but it took a long time from that moment of me thinking I want that first set to actually getting my first set and I don't know. [00:04:04] And that's where I think the stigma. Yeah. That's where it probably, cause I didn't even, you know, I probably was, I don't know if I want to and I never talked about it to anyone. So I guess I didn't talk about it with you. Yeah. I only started talking about it to, with other people recently. [00:04:22] Alexandra: [00:04:22] Yeah, it's weird. [00:04:23] there's even a little bit of appropriation in the story. If I missed back to it. my sister and I were driving cross country when we were 22 or 23, she had just graduated college and it was like my gift to her. So we drove cross country and we spent some time in new Orleans and. [00:04:43] I've always been interested in mysticism. I've always been interested in magic. And so, you know, we did a tour of like the voodoo history of new Orleans and the Torah was given interestingly enough, , a young white man called Alex who was at the time, I thought very hot, like. He, it was the early nineties. [00:05:06] So like he had grungy long hair and was completely heroin, chic click looking look, I just was like, Oh, okay. Part of being I'm studying to be a voodoo priest. At least this is what he said that. So I don't know, again, this is a law this 30 years ago, but he had said like, you can't look in a mirror for a year. [00:05:25] And I was like, I am so ready for this experience. And. But again, like, it was kind of interesting, like, Oh, he was a white guy, like clearly from privilege, like studying to be a voodoo priest. Like I just think about that now. And it's so weird, but he gave the tour and then I just remember us walking, , past, a place that did towel readings and I decided to do it and. [00:05:52]Whether it was good or not because, when you're 23 and somebody says , you have a long journey ahead of you and , you can either go over the mountain or around the mountain. that applies to every single 23 year old on the planet. So yeah. but the thing is she used these beautiful round cards that I had never seen before. [00:06:10]I hadn't really seen any terror cards before except on television, but they looked so different and they were so all-inclusive, it was the mother earth deck there round. And there were lots of tribal images, but not all tribal images, but it was beautiful. And I remember being fascinated and. [00:06:32] Coming home. And again, no internet in 1992. So, I don't even know how I found them. I don't even remember where I bought them if I bought them in new Orleans. I don't think so. I think I went home to San Francisco and went to some occult shop and located them. [00:06:48] Lenya: [00:06:48] lately late. [00:06:49] So the woman who gave you your reading, was she black or white? [00:06:52]Alexandra: [00:06:52] I actually can't remember, but I gotta say like, because I can't remember, she [00:07:00] Lenya: [00:07:00] probably was white. He was [00:07:01] Alexandra: [00:07:01] probably white, but I don't know if that's true. new Orleans is a really diverse town and I, can't be sure, what I remember about new Orleans in 1992 is very similar to San Francisco in 1992. [00:07:13] Like a lot of white kids trying to be, which I love don't get me wrong. I don't care what color, but just like a lot of people like trying to like create their own life. It was a very gen X moment that I loved, and I felt very simpatico in new Orleans in that sense. So. But yeah, probably why. And so maybe, but the thing is, and also the woman , who did those cards? [00:07:40] I think she's white. Karen Vogel. . So again, but through, I'm not going to even use the word cultural appropriation because back then that might not have been true. And I do think that a lot of it is if you look at the cards, not everybody is. white, but not everybody and not everybody is thin. [00:08:00] And so in the idea, it was one of the most inclusive decks I've ever seen, even if there's some cultural appropriation, , but that was my first doc and I had it for 20 years. Then I'd say about eight years ago. I started noticing that there were indie decks and that's when I started my new collection. [00:08:21] And I think I have about 10 decks now. [00:08:24] Lenya: [00:08:24] are they all or white terrorists or do you have any tough dairies? [00:08:28] Alexandra: [00:08:28] I have no top cheros. And a partly I don't, because I feel like, for those of people who aren't, who are kind of interested in taro, but the idea is that there's more than two branches, but there are two main branches of taro and reading and like how much symbolism you get in a deck. [00:08:46] And, I've always sort of been interested in a tough tarot deck, but I just haven't. Gotten one. And then like, I listened to wildly taro and they hate toff. And so I, and it's funny and they hate them for lots of really interesting, good reasons. So yeah. [00:09:04] Lenya: [00:09:04] I was like, I don't even know. Yeah. I didn't know that until I listened to a specific episode and I was like, Oh, this is why I can't connect to them. [00:09:10] Alexandra: [00:09:10] Yeah. the decks that I've been using more recently don't have any people in them. what was your first step? [00:09:17] Lenya: [00:09:17] So my first deck I got from, my good friend and it's a rider white, just a plain, like from new Orleans. [00:09:23] Alexandra: [00:09:23] Okay. Interesting. Yeah. [00:09:25]Lenya: [00:09:25] and it's just, very standard. But see, I was under this, misconception about the superstition that you shouldn't buy your own decks, that your deck should be given to you as a gift. So that's partly why I think it was so long before I got my first deck, because I was waiting for someone to give it to me [00:09:43] Alexandra: [00:09:43] while it's so funny. [00:09:44] Wait a minute. So let's like back up, like, just so like people are listening, like, okay. Like w. How do you use tarot? So a lot of people think Tyro is fortune telling and that isn't how I use it. how do you use your taro cards? [00:09:58] Lenya: [00:09:58] So anything, anybody who, was listening to our Facebook live, that we had a couple of weeks ago. [00:10:03] Yeah. I use my tarot cards to give me guidance, not so much like, Not so much like fortune telling, but to give like guidance on my mood for either the day or the week, you know, like, this week I pulled the ACE of Pentacles for the week. and I thought that was an interesting card to pull from the week. [00:10:23]anytime I pull a Pentacles, I'm very excited. It just gives me a feeling of how my mood should be for the week. And it's more that I manifest that then the cards telling me what. You know what it is. so it, the cards may actually have some, I may, the cards may be charged with my energy and, and I'm pulling something that is it's, that's part of my energy, but I know that I'm going to manifest whatever that card is because it really comes down to me. [00:10:56]Alexandra: [00:10:56] No, absolutely. Also has Oracle deck though, and gotten into Oracle decks. I really do like the hero's journey, that is evident. It's the storyteller in me. That's evident in the tarot cards and I really liked that. And so I used car tarot cards for intention setting for the week. [00:11:14] Sometimes I'll choose a card and sometimes actually I'll find a card. to manifest, I'll just choose a card that really works and fits like what, my week, like I would like my week to look like. And so I try to manifest towards that. I like to do readings and I see it as a time to check in on myself. [00:11:34] Like, so if I do a huge reading, it takes, it might take an hour, but that's an hour that I've spent just, , so in self care. But the other thing is that, you know, when you meditate. It's the idea of separating yourself from your feelings and looking at your feelings. And that's kind of like it, they pass by like, you are not your feelings. [00:11:54] You are not your emotions. And really therapy is a very similar thing because they're talk therapy, you talk out your emotions, your feelings, and then you can see them and make behavioral changes based on what you're looking at. And I find taro to be very similar. to meditation, the sense that your emotions then can play out in cards and , you can let go of things. [00:12:16] And so I just find it a great way to let go. And then finally, as a writing prompt, there are times where I don't want to work on a project. I just want to do my writing practice. And so like, I'll pull a card. And I'll start to write about it, and write what I see and then it just becomes whatever it becomes. [00:12:34] So like, I just find them to be amazing tools of creativity. And the art is amazing. So if you like art, there is, there are pieces of artwork, these cards. so when I was insistently, cause you know, like be original taro is from Italy is from India, but it's from Sicily. So what I love about this is that I was trying so hard in December. [00:13:00] To find like, and the problem is that we went over Christmas week. So everything was closed. Cause it's such a Catholic country. Everything is just all the stores were closed because I just had this and I'm going to go back. I wanted to go down a little alley in Palermo and like go into this, like, you know, antique bookstore and find some like old. [00:13:23] You know, 19th century taro cards. Like that was my dream that I was going to find it didn't happen, but next time, but there is some sort of like, familial connection in that sense that I'm seeking out. I don't really feel an ancestral connection, but I like that there might be in that sense. [00:13:42]you know, I had a landlord who, had tarot cards and she didn't do a credit check. She would draw. A tarot card to see if you were fit and work in the house. [00:13:52] Lenya: [00:13:52] Wow. [00:13:53] Alexandra: [00:13:53] Yeah, Marietta. She was the best landlord I ever had in my life. [00:13:58] Lenya: [00:13:58] That's deeper than a credit [00:13:59] Alexandra: [00:13:59] check. Yeah. and the fact is because I remember Eric and I could barely afford the apartment when we went to go see it, but it was like my San Francisco dream manifested in LA. [00:14:11] And I remember standing there and she gave me a flower and she said, you are beautiful. And then she gave me a tomato from her garden. And then she says, Oh, I don't do a credit check. I will pull a tarot card. And I looked at Eric and I said, okay, We are taking this place no matter what happens. Like this is the only place where beautiful things happen. [00:14:30] And it was true. it was a beautiful 10 years spent in that flat. so your first deck, was it everyday magic or what was your. So the next thing, very representational deck. Yes. [00:14:43] Lenya: [00:14:43] Sure. I got that deck. I thought I talked to, so I used to get readings, monthly readings. [00:14:48] I still, I haven't didn't since we've been on lockdown, but I used to get monthly readings from , my spiritual guide and I talked to her about this and you don't, you can get your own deck. And I was like, okay. So I went and got them the modern, which taro [00:15:03] Alexandra: [00:15:03] modern, which right. [00:15:04] Lenya: [00:15:04] But it took a while, a little bit of research to figure out what deck I wanted. [00:15:08] I liked the modern witch tower because not only is it, culturally, diverse, because you know, this black, this Brown there's white people, but they're also gender sort of gender neutral. Right. And that I liked the, you know, the fluidity of just being able to, see, , that, in front of me, but then, the cards use now or not are not the modern witch tarot, which I still love them. [00:15:34] And , I have them in their little silk pouch with the selenite steaks sitting on top of it. So they stay charged. But I'm really into my, canine deck, which is the deck of dogs [00:15:45] Alexandra: [00:15:45] and it's black and white. And this is what's so interesting, right. About it's a black and white deck. [00:15:50] And I also might, my favorite deck that I use for a long time had barely any color, but talk to me about the dog deck. [00:15:57]Lenya: [00:15:57] I don't know why at the time when I saw it, I just had to have it and I bought it immediately. And it was like how both of us love Etsy. and it was one of these purchases where. [00:16:07] After, like right after I hit buy, I kind of got worried about it. And then I didn't think about it anymore. And then when the deck came, remember it was so beautiful with the silver around the sides. And I just, I could not stop touching it. And then a couple of after, you know, like a couple of days of using it and stuff, I thought I want to look through all the cards. [00:16:26] And I found almost every dog in my life represented in those cards, dogs that had died, dogs that I know the two that I have. Like, it's just, it was like one of those things. And I was like, I have to, this is, this was the deck for me. because I'm still so spiritually connected to the three dogs that passed away. [00:16:45]Alexandra: [00:16:45] you have to see yourself in the deck. And what's interesting to me is I never liked the writer weight deck itself. Like I did buy a copy of it. I have long since given it away, but it is, Royal in nature. So it looks like for other people who don't do taro, it looks like sort of the Royals of playing cards in a sense like, so it's very, It just, I didn't connect to it. [00:17:06]I was like, I used it, but I didn't connect to it. So I, that's why I used the mother earth deck for so long, but then I found a deck. it was the wild, unknown taro that I use for a long time with no people in it. And that's when I really got more recently engaged in Terrell because you just insert yourself into it. [00:17:25] So it becomes a real meditative card. And what I noticed is that representation mattered. I didn't relate to this royalty cartoony characters, and I was able to sort of really insert myself into this space. And then the trouble is that when you're trying to learn how to use the cards without relying on a book all the time as a reference point, The cards with people or dogs or animals in them tell more of a story. [00:17:55] So I went, and this is when I really thought about race and cards. And I bought this deck that I love. I do love it. It's the dark mansion taro and it's by a Polish artist. And. It's all characters. I'm like, Tim, Burton's the nightmare. So, you know, this is the hanged man card. So you can be like, it's a really, [00:18:18] Lenya: [00:18:18] I love [00:18:18] Alexandra: [00:18:18] those. [00:18:20] But every everything, like if you're all learning tarot, this is amazing, right? Because everything tells you it's a story. Like here's the four of wands. [00:18:30] Lenya: [00:18:30] So [00:18:30] Alexandra: [00:18:30] the idea is it's really, it's. It's a great way to learn taro. I'm going through the tarot cards and everybody's white and [00:18:40] Lenya: [00:18:40] everybody's [00:18:41] Alexandra: [00:18:41] skinny. And I have to say, Hey, like I'm a white person and I'm, you know, I'm pretty skinny. [00:18:48] I'm not really skinny anymore. But the idea is like, as much as I love this, it felt false. Like, it didn't feel like the world around me at all. And it felt. Juvenile and old, like old fashioned, rather than something that was current inviting and something. So as much as I really love the artwork of this, and certainly the Polish artists who put this together, I totally support. [00:19:16] But for me as using a card, I was like, this isn't representational. And it's like, I would never, if I were ever reading cards for other people, I would never choose this sort of like a deck to have. In my collection. So what's funny for me is once you would kind of become, I think aware as a white person, too, about the importance of representation, it's like, you can't undo that. [00:19:41] Like once the. You flipped the switch because now when we think about ableism and again on wildly Tara, which is a podcast, you and I both listened to, it's a Facebook group. We're both a part of, and you know, they're talking about ableism and representation because there are cards now where. You know, we have people of different body shapes or it's a morphous body shapes. [00:20:06] And you can't really tell, like, if somebody is thin or heavy, it's just more cartoony or a morphous. And then, there are cards now where they have people in wheelchair. [00:20:16] Lenya: [00:20:16] Oh, that's awesome. [00:20:17]Alexandra: [00:20:17] and there are cards now where it's clear, that, you know, the lovers card might be like two people of the same. [00:20:25]sex. So the idea is like that's once you start thinking about how important it is to be represented, you want to make sure that anything that you touch in your life is, does that make sense? And I think that's true even for a white person. [00:20:43] So you and I have been talking a lot about like, Weaving that like, right. [00:20:50] exit plans. and so I'm like, we're both constantly on real estate, like looking at real estate, like where to leave. like I seriously, like at night, the night Ruth Bader Ginsburg died, I had to watch star Trek insurrection, like a 1996 movie. [00:21:07] I had to watch a space movie. [00:21:09]And then I just had looked, I was looking at it on the TV and then I was on my iPad and I was looking at houses in Europe. Like I couldn't like out, like, this is all I can do right now, but what's interesting is as much as I sort of think about the exit plan and what I want to live, like, I was like, but I live in such amazing diversity here in Los Angeles, and now I'm going to be really cognizant of leaving it. [00:21:36] You know, and that unsettles me too. how do you feel like, so when you buy. Tarot cards. are you overtly looking for representation or you instinctually look for it? Like [00:21:49] Lenya: [00:21:49] you just want to know overtly looking for representation. Like, I'm opted into that Kickstarter for that, tarot card done by that black woman. [00:21:58] And they all are pictures of people from, Louisiana, , her ancestors and, it was definitely what I want. I wish I had it now, but it's supposedly going to go out next week. and it's so beautiful. It's the black and gold tarot I have been specifically looking for that. [00:22:15] I think that's why the modern, which tower I liked. when I went to get the, the urban Tero, which I was so excited when I saw it on Amazon, not realizing, cause I didn't know anything about the top tower. And did you know that the top tower was designed by a drug addled, mystic. [00:22:31]Alexandra: [00:22:31] Modern tarot the book, maybe that's why they just, we can't [00:22:39] Lenya: [00:22:39] relate to it. I don't know. It is the darkest most. Disturbing tarot cards and mind you also the most inclusive I had ever seen. [00:22:50] Alexandra: [00:22:50] Wow. So there's [00:22:51] Lenya: [00:22:51] black, there's white, there's Asian. There are poor people. There are rich people. There are working people there's royalty there it's animals. [00:23:00] It's just, it's a very interesting taro. but very kind of scary to me. Like this is the devil. Let me see. [00:23:09]Alexandra: [00:23:09] Oh, sitting on a [00:23:10] Lenya: [00:23:10] toilet. [00:23:10]Alexandra: [00:23:10] Yeah. That is like, right. he looks like an addict. Yeah. Sitting in a stall, it's a bathroom stall. [00:23:18] Lenya: [00:23:18] Like he just snorted a line of Coke off the top of the toilet. [00:23:23] Oh. And it kind of, it's kind of scary some of these, but then look at this one's the like one of the few white. [00:23:30]Alexandra: [00:23:30] Yes. Happy painting a paint. Yeah. [00:23:34] Lenya: [00:23:34] That's the Empress. It's weird like that. Anyway, I can't relate to this deck. [00:23:40] Alexandra: [00:23:40] No. sometimes you can appreciate a deck for the artwork itself or for the inclusivity itself and you don't connect to the deck. [00:23:46]I certainly, [00:23:48] Lenya: [00:23:48] but I am concerned when I get this other deck that it's all black people. I mean, I realized, you know, representation really matters. [00:23:56]Alexandra: [00:23:56] why does it worry you that there would be all black people [00:23:58] Lenya: [00:23:58] because life isn't all black people. [00:24:01] Alexandra: [00:24:01] No, it's true. [00:24:02] Lenya: [00:24:02] Right. [00:24:03] You know? And so, if we really want it to have a true representation of our lives, then a deck would have. White people, black people, Asian people, indigenous people, you know, lat Latin, the next people, like it would just have everyone. and I kind of like. When we talk about, inclusion and representation, I worry that we go, we're all like one way, like it's gotta be all black people. [00:24:29] It's gotta be all Asian people. It's gotta be all. and that's just not life. Like you don't walk into any neighborhood and have all just one. Even if we go to little Tokyo, you're still going to see other races, other people of other, you know, like it might be in the majority might be Japanese that live there, but you're still going to see other races and cultural, Okay. [00:24:53] The cities represented. So I feel we shouldn't go all the way. Like I think representation should be just that representation. So everybody should be represented. That's how life is. [00:25:05] Alexandra: [00:25:05] I agree. I completely agree. [00:25:08] Lenya: [00:25:08] so I get a little worried when it's like, it's an all black TV show or it's an old TV show because life doesn't work like that. [00:25:15] Alexandra: [00:25:15] It just also, so there is something so reactionary to it. And, but I have to say, though, is there something in the recognizing. Where their neat, because it's been all white for so long that in the reckoning there isn't some, you know what, I just want something that's all my ethnicity or all my race. is there something to that? [00:25:45] Lenya: [00:25:45] so I have a problem with that too, because then. [00:25:49] Those people who are so pro white have more to be angry about because they're not represented. So look at why can't we show them that we can all live in harmony together. Right? So if we could start having more images of all the different cultures living together in harmony, then that will be that first step with this reckoning to show those pro white people. [00:26:15] That it can happen. Right. So when you see the football players, white, black, all of them linking arms together and, you know, saying that we're representing like, in F1 there, they basically, they have the hashtag and racism, but we race as one. [00:26:35] Alexandra: [00:26:35] Yeah, [00:26:36] Lenya: [00:26:36] race has one. So if you're thinking of it, as we're all one people, together, it might be easier. And like I say this with like, you know, not tongue in cheek, but you know what I mean? Like it would be for the pro white people or even the whites, black people, the white supremacists, but even the, all like those. [00:26:59] Pro black people or people who are just like, I just want to be with my own people. If they, if everybody sees themselves. Together with everyone else. It might be easier for us to move to a place where we can all be together. I [00:27:14] Alexandra: [00:27:14] think [00:27:14] Lenya: [00:27:14] because we already have all black TV. Right. We have, black entertainment, television, Latino people have their own TV. [00:27:21]Alexandra: [00:27:21] Isn't the argument that like, why does it have to be black entertainment, television? Why can't it just be ABC? Because the argument would be ABC is all white. Like, you know, you move through that white world. isn't that ghettoisation in the sense that you have to have black entertainment television, there needs to be like a Latin channel. [00:27:39] There needs to be, , an Asian channel, like, isn't that like further ghettoizing. [00:27:45] Lenya: [00:27:45] Yeah, but I'm saying that's what I'm saying. We already have those things and we're not saying we're not. And we still can't seem to. to make this connection that we should all be together. [00:27:55] So we already have these spaces where black people can be all together and why people can be all together and have, and so what we need now is to mesh all of that. [00:28:04]Alexandra: [00:28:04] living in LA or living in New York and other really super diverse places, it's really easy for creators to create. [00:28:15] Without a racial construct because you tend to create what's around you. And so even for me, if I were to just create a natural state of things, I'm going to hear different languages. I'm going to see people of different races. I'm going to see new immigrants, people who have been here, since before California was a state. [00:28:36]like you can think of all of it. But what do you say to somebody who's creating in either an enclave of all one race? And it could be a white enclave, but it could also just be an all black enclave, like, [00:28:55] you [00:28:55] Lenya: [00:28:55] know, and all the [00:28:59] Alexandra: [00:28:59] it's fuck had white people in it. what was interesting? they might've been the foil. [00:29:03] Do you know what I mean? But that show had white people in it. [00:29:07] Lenya: [00:29:07] Same as Blackish. Blackish has, quite [00:29:09] Alexandra: [00:29:09] a [00:29:09] Lenya: [00:29:09] few white regulars on the show. [00:29:12] Alexandra: [00:29:12] I never even really, but [00:29:13] Lenya: [00:29:13] they're still written with an all black writers room. [00:29:15]Alexandra: [00:29:15] no. I agree. but when you think about that, like how do you, you're asking them somebody to be not in their creative place, but to be in their head and their analytical place and say, Oh, we need to make this more diverse. [00:29:30] Lenya: [00:29:30] So what I'm saying is that person who has that idea. Should then when they take that idea to the studio, make sure that in the room, the writer's room, that when they start to really flesh out the story have representation of everyone. [00:29:47] Alexandra: [00:29:47] Right. So, but how does that work say in like, so that might work in a commercial television production and that's what you're talking about, but what about just a creator of tarot cards? [00:29:59]Lenya: [00:29:59] this is where I think it's okay to have like an all white techno black deck and all this deck, because the person is creating this based on something within themselves. And then the person who's seeking out the deck can seek out what they want. [00:30:14]But what about the the greater world, [00:30:17]Alexandra: [00:30:17] then let's go to young adult fiction. Or children's literature. So like what, how does that work? Because I'm just trying to say yes, like [00:30:26] Lenya: [00:30:26] that's a hard one. Yeah, girl, I, you know, I, this Lupita Nyong'o wrote the most beautiful story. [00:30:33]little story children's book that I'm getting from my niece and it's an all black, [00:30:38] Alexandra: [00:30:38] storybook. [00:30:39] Lenya: [00:30:39] And, I, when I first decided that I was going to buy this for her, I thought, Oh, this is fantastic. she'll see herself in this book, [00:30:48] Alexandra: [00:30:48] right? [00:30:49]Lenya: [00:30:49] her mother and her family lived next door to a white family. And they have decided to quarantine together as their bubble. Right? So this, these two families are together in a bubble. Which I think is one of the most progressive things ever kudos to my sister in law for the way she lives, her life like this. [00:31:07]so her children and their children are having this amazing, diverse growing up together. Like, you know, and it's, that's what the world really should look like. Right. But, I then worry, like, am I in the center? This all black children's book, but that's not even representative of her life because [00:31:24]Alexandra: [00:31:24] her. [00:31:25] Quote, [00:31:25] Lenya: [00:31:25] unquote, other family is white. [00:31:29] Alexandra: [00:31:29] So you think that like for years, so here's the thing, send the book because like, here's the thing, like diverse lifestyles are important, so you can be in an all black community because if you grow up in. like a certain neighborhood and maybe there are just no white people living there and you might live in an all white area neighborhood, but you still want to see diversity and see that there are all different ways to live. [00:31:52] And the idea is that 90% of the books they're going to read are going to be of all white kids. Yeah, so, [00:31:58]Lenya: [00:31:58] she lives with my dad, so my dad will not allow that. [00:32:01]Alexandra: [00:32:01] So, I think it is so important, , because even as diverse as my upbringing was, and as. As much as my parents fought hard about all those issues. I have to say, I. I didn't read Beverly clearly, like it was Beverly clearly it was Laura Ingles. It was Anne of green Gables, white [00:32:27] Lenya: [00:32:27] for all my books. [00:32:28] So, yeah. [00:32:29] Alexandra: [00:32:29] And, and I saw myself, like I was, I wanted to be Anne of green Gables. until she got married and cause she shouldn't have gotten married and I wanted to be Laura Ingles until she got married. Cause of course she was. I don't think she should have gotten married. I [00:32:41] Lenya: [00:32:41] was. So, especially not to that guy. [00:32:43] Alexandra: [00:32:43] No. And with Jane Eyre, like again, why? Like, but again, like every heroin that I read, little woman. Yeah. Like, Oh Joe but white Nancy. I was obsessed with Nancy drew. Oh my God. I wanted to meet you drew. Well, I wanted to be George, but I wanted to be the lead. Do you know? I wanted to be a boy, but I wanted to be the lead, not the sidekick, but. [00:33:09] I read all those books, but that's white, like, all I did was see myself. And the fact is that as a woman, I can tell you representation screwed with me because as a woman, yeah. You never wanted to be married and never wanted kids. I was bugged by the ends of all those books, because it was always about. [00:33:28]and then you find the man and you're happy it ha it just pissed me. I was just so angry that's how all those books ended. but I digress, but the idea is that I'm cognizant now that I'm I really, and even, and I loved my high school and we did have some. this is like what the early eighties. [00:33:53]we read the classics and it was all by white men, and I think like, God, like the shadow it created, I have such empathy and I love all those fiction care. And I love all those books. I love reading so much, but I'm really aware of how limiting that. [00:34:11] That is and how it affects how you see the world. I think there's [00:34:16] Lenya: [00:34:16] that though, you know, like as a black person, you don't even think about that because you don't have anything else. And then my favorite book growing up was a tree grows in Brooklyn and then joined the morning. Those were the two books turn that corner for me in school where I all of a sudden went from all, you know, readings. [00:34:33] Okay. To, I have to read everything. [00:34:36] Alexandra: [00:34:36] Yeah. I have a tree grows in Brooklyn. No, like I just, I was going to reread it. [00:34:42] Lenya: [00:34:42] I reread [00:34:43] Alexandra: [00:34:43] it every couple of years. Oh my God. I love that. [00:34:46] Lenya: [00:34:46] So, you know, and it wasn't until I sort of started reading fantasy that then you start seeing a little bit like that, then it's like, okay, it's, they're not black or white they're creatures, but then it's like, it feels better. [00:34:58] Alexandra: [00:34:58] Yeah. So I totally, I love creatures like star Trek, but I'd come on, man. I love star Trek. [00:35:07]Lenya: [00:35:07] Yeah. Well I'm star Wars, I mean, I do love star Trek too. Like I'm a next gen girl. [00:35:12] Alexandra: [00:35:12] No, I am a next gen. I am, I did not do you know, on my personal blog. My friend Connor. And I wrote like, who is better? [00:35:21]because she was in love with captain Kirk growing up. And I was in love with Hawkeye Pierce from Matt. And we have a little column next to each other. Like I read this. Yeah. But she was, I was not an original star Trek. I thought it was creepy. I have since gone back and I think it's campy and funny, but I'm a next gen. [00:35:41] Lenya: [00:35:41] Oh God. John Luke Picard [00:35:44] Alexandra: [00:35:44] make it, sir. Patrick Stewart [00:35:45] Lenya: [00:35:45] is the hottest man alive. [00:35:47] Alexandra: [00:35:47] Yes, I agree. I totally agree with that. [00:35:50] Lenya: [00:35:50] I've hot too. By the way. [00:35:51] Alexandra: [00:35:51] I did not know that. [00:35:52] Lenya: [00:35:52] Oh my God. She sings like an angel and she's absolutely stunning. Their story is so beautiful. You know, because he was, the child of an abuse of an abused relationship. [00:36:04] His mother was physically abused almost to the point of death several times by his father who was a veteran, came back with PTA. [00:36:13] Alexandra: [00:36:13] How do you know all this? [00:36:15] Lenya: [00:36:15] Because I researched it. [00:36:16]I'm one of these people, when I fall in love with you, I have to know everything about you. [00:36:21] Alexandra: [00:36:21] Yeah. [00:36:22] Lenya: [00:36:22] So like I researched it and then he would go to different universities and give talks about, domestic violence. [00:36:31] Alexandra: [00:36:31] Wow. I did not know that [00:36:34] Lenya: [00:36:34] his personal story made me love him even more. And now I'm like so tempted to get, CBS all access, just so that I can watch the new [00:36:44] Alexandra: [00:36:44] Picard. Yes. I want to do that too, [00:36:48] Lenya: [00:36:48] but I just don't know, like, you know, you've already spent so much money. [00:36:50] Netflix, Amazon, Hulu. And because our fabulous president made it so that there's so many, so much of these things are not tax deductible. So even though I'm in the industry, I can't deduct it on my tax. [00:37:04]Alexandra: [00:37:04] I'm going to D I it's coming out. no, I know, but you're going to be able to buy it on iTunes. So I'm not going to subscribe. [00:37:11] I'm going to just buy it on iTunes. [00:37:13] Lenya: [00:37:13] I'll do that too. Wouldn't it be? But [00:37:15] Alexandra: [00:37:15] you know who I had a crush on, and this is like, so Wharf. [00:37:18]Lenya: [00:37:18] Yeah, [00:37:20] Alexandra: [00:37:20] kind of, I am clinging on like I am part clan. Right. I'm very, [00:37:25] Lenya: [00:37:25] that was a very good character. Very good character. [00:37:29] Alexandra: [00:37:29] I about representation, like even from the original star Trek, and I, you know, but there's such representation. [00:37:37] And then I got to say a shout out to Voyager with a female captain. Yes. [00:37:43] Lenya: [00:37:43] And then the next one had a black male captain. [00:37:46] Alexandra: [00:37:46] Absolutely. So star Trek has [00:37:49] Lenya: [00:37:49] always been star Trek has always been one of those shows that has been amazing. [00:37:55] Alexandra: [00:37:55] And actually, yeah, it's exactly what you're talking about. Yes. Everybody [00:37:59] Lenya: [00:37:59] living in harmony, [00:38:01]Alexandra: [00:38:01] that's kind of what I loved about it. [00:38:03] And it's so funny. Like since Trump was elected. I have to say, I have been not watching shows where they're anti-heroes because I just can't deal with the ugliness and I can't watch really, like, I haven't been able to watch Ozark. Because the people are just really ugly. [00:38:22]and I know it's a good show and I'm sure I'll watch it, but I can't watch that right now. I watched star Trek where everybody tries to make a moral decision and it's like always righteous in the end. And there's great. Harmony and Eric laughs at me, he's like, what are you doing? I said, I'm rewatching Voyager for the, like the millionth time. [00:38:39] And yes, like I have to fall asleep. So I'm listening to Picard. Manage the universe in a very good way. Like that is where I'm at right now. And I do find that, see, and that's why I also like watch a lot of British TV because also tend to be cast unless it's like happening in some English village. Oh Harry. [00:39:03]but the idea is it generally tends to be a diverse cast and it is about living. in harmony and I. I liked that [00:39:15] Lenya: [00:39:15] I do too. I do love British TV. I've become obsessed with, Mikayla Cole. She's a black actress, black English actress, but she's also a writer and director and her first ever show. [00:39:28] I think I watched it in Australia. It was called chewing gum on Netflix. [00:39:32] Alexandra: [00:39:32] Oh, I love that show. [00:39:34] Lenya: [00:39:34] So she, it, after two seasons it's stopped and she kind of disappeared. And then she did this Netflix series about, she's an African child. I'll have to fill it. [00:39:43] I'll find it. And I'll put it in the show and give it to you for the show notes, but she's such an amazing actress. And then the new series that's on HBO. I may destroy you. On believable, again, very diverse tasks, diverse, , life, beyond and in her and all of her shows have based around [00:40:04] Alexandra: [00:40:04] her. [00:40:05] Lenya: [00:40:05] Oh, you know, you really need to see, I may destroy you. It is. It's all about consent. All [00:40:11] right, [00:40:11] Alexandra: [00:40:11] I'm going to watch it. [00:40:12]Lenya: [00:40:12] and, when I say diverse and it's diverse in race, it's diverse in, the gay characters trans characters. and they have like a love story. it's really, it's a really good show British. And I find that you get those kind of complex nuanced. Types of television shows more internationally. I feel like sometimes American television shows have, they feel like they have to spoon feed us everything, which is one of the reasons why I'm really enjoying Lovecraft country. [00:40:46] Because it's a little different, like nothing is being spoonfed. Every episode I'm like, Oh my God, [00:40:52]Alexandra: [00:40:52] me all right. Yeah. [00:40:53] Lenya: [00:40:53] HBO is worth buying. [00:40:56] Alexandra: [00:40:56] I'm not going to do it. I know, but I'm not gonna do it. [00:40:58] Lenya: [00:40:58] It's the one channel that if I didn't have anything else, it's the one channel that I would do because they take chances. [00:41:05] They take big insecure. [00:41:08] Alexandra: [00:41:08] Yeah. I don't know what you're talking. They took. Yeah, [00:41:12] Lenya: [00:41:12] I know, but, Oh my God. Would you love insecure? I may destroy you as HBO. what else? Lovecraft countries, HBO. insecures HBO. [00:41:23] Alexandra: [00:41:23] So now everybody knows how Lenny is spending her pandemic. Yes. [00:41:28]Doing that. [00:41:29] Lenya: [00:41:29] I am obsessive only watching girlfriends on Netflix [00:41:32] Alexandra: [00:41:32] or watching formula one. Yes. the week [00:41:35] Lenya: [00:41:35] let's see the races are or aren't every weekend. Oh yeah. They had a break last week, but this weekend is the, race in. Russia. [00:41:46] Alexandra: [00:41:46] that's exciting. Alright. So before we end, we should certainly everybody in conversation, everybody. [00:41:52] But do you wanna, do you want to pull a card for the show? Sure. [00:41:57] Lenya: [00:41:57] Do you want to pull a [00:41:58] Alexandra: [00:41:58] card? I'm going to pull a card. I'm going to [00:42:00] Lenya: [00:42:00] show, are you going to pull a tarot card? Yeah. Then I'm going to pull an Oracle card. [00:42:05] Alexandra: [00:42:05] All right. I'm gonna pull a tarot from the light seers debt, the light Sears deck. Which is my, the deck I've been using since the pandemic began. [00:42:15] [00:42:15] I find it to be a happy deck. I don't want any, I don't want anything that isn't happy right now. Again, star Trek. [00:42:22] [00:42:22] I'm going to watch Mary Tyler Moore episodes. If I could. That's how I got through law school. Mary. I used to get, here's how I got through law school. I used to get high. I was a big, I was a big pothead and in law school and in high school, maybe, but that's not what we're talking about In college and in law school, but in law school, I used to get high. Like once I was done studying to sleep because I have a heart, I have such bad insomnia. And then I would watch, I had cable back then and I would watch Mary Tyler Moore on Nick at night and I would watch for feminist cues that she was having sex. [00:43:01]there's one episode where she come home in the morning from like being out somewhere else and I'm like, see, she had sex. And that was my obsession. But I wanted to be Mary Tyler Moore. I [00:43:18] Lenya: [00:43:18] just want to tell people I'm pulling a, an article card for the, show on from the daily crystal inspiration, Oracle deck. [00:43:26] So not people crystals, cause I'm obsessed with crystals. For those of you who don't know. Okay. Have a think, [00:43:34]Alexandra: [00:43:34] Oh, you're going to love it. Cause you love Pentacles. I do. So I pulled an eight of Pentacles. [00:43:42]Lenya: [00:43:42] What does that mean again? [00:43:44]Alexandra: [00:43:44] it's a bountiful card, so that's good for us. So then Nichols, earthy money success, [00:43:52]So mastering a skill, that you put into your work, the methodical progress patients determine and sole purpose. Oh [00:44:01] Lenya: [00:44:01] wow. [00:44:03] Alexandra: [00:44:03] That's a good one. Loving determination. We persevere and become the people. We long to be. This is a good one for the podcast. That's good. [00:44:12] Positive and seeds. You see how like loving, and this is my hat. This is my pandemic deck. Chris, [00:44:19]Lenya: [00:44:19] the appetite card. Get out of your comfort zone. [00:44:25]Alexandra: [00:44:25] we are. Yes. Wow. That's a beautiful stone. Is that green and blue? [00:44:30] Lenya: [00:44:30] It is it's green and blue. I'm going to have to buy one of these now. Yes, [00:44:33]Alexandra: [00:44:33] I'm still obsessed. CB where Lenya is coming. So it's [00:44:38]Lenya: [00:44:38] my crystal person is Andrea from crystal and craft. [00:44:41] Alexandra: [00:44:41] That's a shout out. [00:44:43] Lenya: [00:44:43] I know I love her so much, but wait, let me read you about the card. It says, burst through your bubble. There's a first time for everything and everyone get out of your comfort zone to discover what feeds your appetite for life. [00:44:55] It is easy to become complacent, to play it safe and live in your self created boundaries. Don't let your routine hold you back from challenging yourself. Now. That [00:45:06] Alexandra: [00:45:06] is great. That is a great card. And with that, bye everybody. We'll see you next week. [00:45:12] Lenya: [00:45:12] Bye.

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